2) No qualified people here because they aren't of the same nationality as those in the "home office" that owns and controls their subsidiary here in the U.S. This reason is arguably one of not having the required "training" (read indoctrination) but these positions are filled by expats mostly out of nationalism.
3) No qualified people here because the real intent is to train the immigrant worker so certain technology can more easily be exported to a foreign office. I don't have competing numbers but your cited reason is not the only one.
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 5:11:39 PM
News media promoting Fake news once again?
They'll blindly continue grazing at their favorite breeders choice of biased news, the twisted cliff notes version of deception, innuendos, lies and deceit on Huff & Puff.
How many predominately Muslim countries are there on Earth?
ROFL at Democrat tears of ignorance.
http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/misc/FULL-TEXT-of-President-Trump-executive-order-on-temporary-refugee-ban-and-extreme-vetting-412153093.html
Maybe it will be a topic of shame, or it might viewed as a clever ploy--or both--but do you really think this is not aimed at keeping people out on religious grounds? With half the WH staff and cabinet White Elitists who only want Europeans to immigrated?
Curious how people can be both Pro-Fascist and childishly naive at the same time. Hollywood usually paint Pro-Fascists as world-weary and hard-nosed evil geniuses. Another stereotype that needs to be altered. Johanna "Magda" Goebbels died today. She always maintained that she had know idea what was going on. She said it was like Germany was under a spell. Very curious.
It is going to be hard to show this is a "Muslim ban" when both Congress and Obama admin focused on 7 specific countries as leaders in exporting terrorism.
So the bi-partisan determining criteria to make the list would be "danger" rather than a "religion" test.
If it truly was a "Muslim ban" why would Trump exclude 85% of Muslim countries from the ban?
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 1:32:31 PM
where he does business.
He left 39 other Muslim countries off the list, with approx. 90% of those he was NOT doing business with.
There was a reason Obama and Congress chose 7 nations and Trump just followed lock step in that precedent.
They continually double down on ignorance.
That's why they'll lose more seats in 2018.
There was a reason Obama and Congress chose 7 nations and Trump just followed lock step in that precedent.
Simple minded liberals.
How is their open door policy working out for them?
Is that really what you want for us?
I am surprised Merkel hasn't met the same fate as Il Duce
Tech companies rely heavily on H1-B visa people - Apple, Intel etc. wouldn't be the companies they are w/o these people. (My son - American born Caucasian and not Muslim - works for Intel). If this ban holds, some tech companies will move some offices elsewhere. Microsoft already has a major office in Vancouver because they can't bring enough H1-B visa people into the States. There's a limit by law. So, if Apple, Intel build offices in Canada or wherever, that's less tax revenue to the U.S. - these people make good money
Stock market is down almost 200 points today - tech is especially down
btw, little known fact: no terrorist attacks from these 7 countries since 9/11. We already have "extreme vetting:" it takes 18-24 months to get visa
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 1:50:01 PM
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 2:41:30 PM
None of the countries on Trump's list. You got it! Saudi Arabia. Hmmm!
No one will give an answer.
Matt, that is old news, and Obama never spoke a negative word against the U.S. ally S.A.
You argument is we have "lengthy" vetting not "extreme" vetting. Just because something takes a long time does not necessarily mean it is capable and adequate.
Why do libs have SO much problem with a temporary pause, to look into what vetting is taken pace and try and make it better?
I thought liberals LOVED oversight? LOL
And please stop pointing to the stock market. Libs made that dumb mistake the day of Brexit and again on Trump election night.
Because libs are bozos.
They should be protesting the TSA, not a travel ban, that might possibly effect an individual, who does not care about them.
They think refugees care if they live or die, they'd probably rather see them dead, since our FP is responsible for their refugee status.
My company sponsors H1-B visa guys. My son works for Intel and he's involved in hiring guys who will be H1-B visa guys after they're vetted
So, I know a tad about it. Took us months and hours of paperwork to help vet an H1Ber.
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 3:19:19 PM
Hire a fucking American.
So, I know a tad about it. Took us months and hours of paperwork to help vet an H1Ber.
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 3:19:19 PM
coming here YEARLY. If there were qualified Americans there wouldn't be H1-Bers. Do you think Intel, Apple, Microsoft are anti-American and go outta there way to hire H1-Bers?!? They do it because there are simply not nearly as many damn-good Americans. My caucasian American non-Muslim son works for Intel in California. Two-thirds of the people who work there are H1-Bers and nationalized citizens. Intel recruits nationally (obviously) and hires the best people they can find.
My little company sponsors 3 H1-Bers because I can't find Americans who are qualified to do the job. Do you think I wanted to spend hours and thousands of dollars on a fucking H1-B sponsorship paperwork, which, is less fun than salmonella?
1) No qualified people here because they aren't willing to work for the same substantially less wages as the immigrant.
2) No qualified people here because they aren't of the same nationality as those in the "home office" that owns and controls their subsidiary here in the U.S. This reason is arguably one of not having the required "training" (read indoctrination) but these positions are filled by expats mostly out of nationalism.
3) No qualified people here because the real intent is to train the immigrant worker so certain technology can more easily be exported to a foreign office.
I don't have competing numbers but your cited reason is not the only one.
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 5:11:39 PM
You clearly have no experience in this field!
H1-Bers at Intel - and I'm sure at Microsoft and Apple - earn the same as Americans. btw, if Intel etc. didn't pay equally, they'd be sued for discrimination and they would lose.
The "home office" meaning management and upper management and above are mostly Caucasian Americans - it's the engineers that are H1-Bers
In order to be hired by an Intel or Apple etc. you need to be at or very near the top of your class in college. Assuming you have excellent grades, then you're interviewed - this is purely a technical interview. Some pass, most do not. (My son does some of this interviewing).
Training means you're put on a project team and the Team Lead assigns you tasks. Either you perform or you don't. There aren't trading classes etc. - guys were trained in college.
Your last comment: "real intent is so certain technology can be easily exported to a foreign office" is incoherent. When Apple engineers the next iPhone, it doesn't matter where the engineering is performed - U.S., Israel, etc., it's obviously sold world-wide. There's no reason to "export the technology." Actually, the engineering effort is worked on by a team, some guys - it's 99% guys - are in California, some are in Israel etc.
with such a cloistered attitude and narrow experience?
Not all H1-B visas go to Intel or Apple or companies similar to those with which you claim to be familiar. I gave 3 solid examples of how H1-B visas are used (and abused) outside your world, regardless how big and universal you believe your world to be.
I didn't say you were wrong. I said you were incomplete (although you made a few errors in this last post outside our current discussion). You did not refute a single point I made, except from the perspective of how you think Intel, Apple, etc. operate. You clearly do not know what happens OUTSIDE of Intel, Apple, ETC.
Quite a few companies doing billions in IT work Stateside, are based outside the US, occasionally in Bombay, paying much less when their employees work here, versus American IT companies.
I know a couple IT Geeks who work for major corporations, who've gone to India numerous times to train Systems analysts, programming, development, etc. skills, that could easily be taught to American citizens.
Bottom Line = money saved using H1B workers.
Infosys Indian company 33000 H1B workers-2016....Average salary $ 79,000
Mindtree Indian Company16000 H1B workers 2016 ....Average salary $ 69,000
Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon average HB1 workers salary $120,000
Intel over $ 100,000
Foreign companies have cheated with Visa classifications, sometimes hiring foreign workers
without the proper permit.
You can expect President Trump to address the H1B issue and jobs lost our own citizens could easily do.
Guaranteed there are hundreds of thousands of Inner city youth who could be trained to do IT work when they have access to proper training.
I have faith in President Trump and team "America First"
the same as they pay guys in India - I said that they pay H1-Bers in the States the same as they pay Americans in the States. I'm also saying that a given company - Intel or ABC Co. can't pay their H1-Bers less than their Americans. Sure, Tata or similar can pay their people in the States less than XYZ in the States pays their people.
And, you're conflating H1B guys with guys in India etc. Obviously some work can be done by people living in India and those people will earn a small fraction of what they would make here in the States.
I'm familiar w/Infosys and Tata - my company sometimes competes with them.
What Apple, Intel, google etc. engineers do is different than what Infosys etc. people do. The former are hardware or software engineers, the latter are coders or analysts or similar - big difference.
As for your IT Geeks who train people in India on programming etc.: big American companies sometimes would rather have their employees in India do these tasks - the same reason that manufacturing companies move to Mexico etc. - wages are obviously much much smaller.
It's called discrimination. Wage discrimination is one form. A company simply can't pay an H1-Ber less than an American for the same job. Sure, companies can "cheat" somewhat/sometimes but not substantially - especially large companies who would be sued outta business
And, I've "survived" quite well in business for 20+ years - thank-you-very-much!
I gave you 3 other reasons to which you then claimed I was 100% wrong with your only reasoning coming from someone that appears to live inside a bubble. Now you are acknowledging one of the alternate uses I raised. Yes indeed, it's an abuse but it happens, more than you probably know.
You've got 20+ years in business, great. I was attempting to give back some of your lame tactics. You've got some perspective through your son, fine. I never said you were wrong in your H1B reasoning but that you WERE incomplete.
I've got 40+ years working in engineering and engineering management. Does that make me twice as savvy as you? Who cares? For the most recent 20 years I've worked for a 50 billion dollar European corporation. It's not nearly the same as working for a U.S. based company (which I also did for 20 years). It's a different kind of bubble but it's not the same bubble you and your son are in. The use of visas reaches a level you clearly have not been exposed to in your bubble.
post outside our current discussion?"
I was tiring of your overly arrogant attitude. The errors you made are still irrelevant but since you asked here goes:
Not all H1B visas go to engineers. "Home office" refers to the management group that is dictating who is getting a visa and where the receivers are originating from.
University training does not come close to the expertise a person needs to perform in an engineering group, especially at higher tech companies and departments. "On the job" training and mentoring is critical and always ongoing.
Regarding your last paragraph about exporting technology. Again, not everything happens according to the way you think Intel or Apple may or may not operate. The simplest example I can give would be where a company wants to educate engineers in a country where they are paid substantially less than in the U.S. The educational material substantively is within the U.S. engineers. One or more of these U.S. engineers might be paid to travel to the foreign country or the foreign engineers might be granted H1B visas to enter to U.S. in order to provide some expertise not available otherwise but while they are present they also are educated by the U.S. engineer. The foreigner is then much more capable to replace the U.S. engineer's function after he returns home. Some people simplify the situation and call it "training your replacement." Happens all the time.
BTW, thanks for the primer on the hiring process that happens in the engineering world. Who'da thunk it?
I DO live in a bubble! - all I know is IT sales and IT business. I'm NOT an engineer! I'm not a geek!
Many on this topic proclaim "hire Americans first." It's not "either - or." It's not that there are, say, 100 job openings and 100 Americans apply and 100 foreigners applying. If you look at Apple, Microsoft, Intel and similar websites you'll see that they're dying for people. There simply not enuff qualified people. Hence, they go wherever they can to find 'em. This is one of the reasons wages keep increasing in this field - companies try and "pirate" people from other companies and keep bidding the wage rate up.
In this particular field - and I'm only talking high-end computer engineering - Intel etc. recruits at the top schools and hires only the best. The vast majority of these recruits have PhD's or at least Masters degrees. So, this is where they get their "training." There's very little mentoring on-the-job. (My son's been with Intel for 10+ years - went straight there outta college - hence I know a tad about Intel). I'm sure that it's different in other engineering fields.
Regarding your comment of "Americans engineers go to foreign country to train engineers...." Are you saying that the foreigners are already engineers and they need further training by Americans? If so, this is different from my little "bubble." Regarding "training your replacement" - I've heard of it! - maybe what's different in my "bubble" is that people aren't replaced. Apple, Microsoft etc. are always adding people and keep everyone that can - they don't try and save money by replacing an American with a foreigner.
Some in this thread are conflating two issues. Hiring H1-Bers in America is totally different from ABC Co., based in the U.S., opening an office in India, China etc., and having Americans go there to train people who then stay there and work. In IT, these are lower end jobs - skills that can be taught in a few weeks or several months. Obviously, companies want to save $costs and they can pay people in India a tiny fraction of what they're paid here....obviously. Some here say "Americans can/should do these jobs." Are you suggesting that American companies shouldn't have foreign offices manned by foreigners??
If I was interested in what some others in this thread were saying then I would respond to them.
Things make more sense now. You weren't actually having a conversation with me. It was with everyone else here. You simply posted under my comments that were responding to you. While you were speaking to me you were thinking about what someone else had said elsewhere. That WILL make for a confusing and difficult dialog.
Why do you still keep talking about Intel, etc.? You must think I still don't get it. BTW I guarantee you that Intel hires plenty of B.S. engineers. Most might have several years experience thereby having gained what at those earlier job(s)? Oh yea, training.
All this started with me explaining to you that your concept of the use of the visa was not accurate. Yet you still haven't given me the slightest hint you accept or understand one thing I've said.
All the engineers I spoke of are all employed by the same company that is not headquartered in the U.S. It is headquartered in the EU. They are the ones applying for European or Indian engineer to work in the U.S. for several months or 1 to 3 years. In order to move engineers around from one country to another they need visas.
Concepts that are foreign to you still might exist.
of course not
'mericans are their true enemy
Trumps is just fixing it
FAST
and the whining and moaning continues
for victims that don't exist
beautiful music
until they play it so much it becomes background noise
The answer is hell no dumb ass.
You are like the GOP version of cult clown.
Just comes on here making up one liar after another.
'mericans are their true enemy
Trumps is just fixing it
FAST
and the whining and moaning continues
for victims that don't exist
beautiful music
until they play it so much it becomes background noise
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 7:24:24 PM
And what is in the "extreme vetting" process? How is it different that what we're doing now??
My guess is that you don't know and neither does trump or his team. It's just wording the he used to sucker his supporters to get them all geek up.. the "extreme vetting" process is probably no different then what we're doing now...it's just a buzz phrase that doesn't mean shit.
Who fucking cares. They can and should hire American's first. Stop shopping overseas for people they can treat like slaves at slave wages.
Good luck moving overseas. Trump has made that very unprofitable. What would that announcement look like from Intel? Um.. Ah... we don't want to hire American's so we are moving operations overseas? Watch their stock tank.
OMG the markets down. Wait it's up again. Wait it's down again.
Hell it's only up a few thousand since he took office....
Stock market is down almost 200 points today - tech is especially down
btw, little known fact: no terrorist attacks from these 7 countries since 9/11. We already have "extreme vetting:" it takes 18-24 months to get visa
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/jan/29/jerrold-nadler/have-there-been-terrorist-attacks-post-911-countri/
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 1:50:01 PM
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 2:41:30 PM
But, they need to hire the best and brightest, some of which happen to be non-Americans. And, the H1-Bers earn the same as their American peers. (If they weren't they'd sue these tech companies for discrimination and they would win). H1Bers aren't Mexicans picking fruit for $5/hour.
And, tech companies wouldn't "move overseas," they'd simply open new offices overseas, which Trump can't stop. TwoMints, don't you realize that these large tech companies already have offices in multiple countries? Tech companies will hire Americans in America and employ 'em in America, and they'll hire non-Americans overseas and employ 'em there - which will cost the U.S. tax revenue as these non-Americans will pay taxes in their home country
No one is upset about the concept of vetting. But, refugees are already put through 18 mo to 2yrs of vetting before being allowed to enter the county; which makes the whole “extreme vetting” thing perplexing——not to mention the lack of apparent logic in blocking people with visas and green cards, or in the specific countries’ targeted (and, please, stop already with “but it was Obamas list!”).
Then we have the complete and total cluster-fuck in execution after not even bothering to consult with State Dept, Homeland security, et al….ya know….the organizations that, even if not consulted (they weren't?), need to know what the fuck is going on so they understand what they’re supposed to be doing. This was either a surreal and stunning demonstration of complete incompetence in handling matters of national security, or a deliberately constructed distraction from Bannon’s promotion to NSC. Probably both.
Not only did trump campaign on a promise to ban Muslims from entering the US, Giuliani, one of T’s many trained crazy monkeys, has come right out and announced that Trump asked him to work out a plan to ban Muslims.
If this ban was only about keeping dangerous terrorists' from these countries out of the US, there would be no allowance for Christians from these countries either. Christians are being persecuted in these countries? Well Muslims are being persecuted in these countries too. And, we have plenty of examples of terrorists acts committed by good ‘ol red blooded American Christians right here at home.
You think muslim radicalization was a problem before this executive order? Not only is trump doing exactly what he needs to do to encourage an increase in radicalization of American and foreign Muslims, he’s doing a bang-up fantastic job of radicalizing non-Muslim Americans too.
http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/misc/FULL-TEXT-of-President-Trump-executive-order-on-temporary-refugee-ban-and-extreme-vetting-412153093.html
Why not just blame the mosc shooting in Quebec on Trump?
Let's just come to the realization that Muslims are not going to be fans of U.S. foreign policy.
This will end in a positive note for all religious institutions, and libs, along with many others, on a negative.
Then we have the complete and total cluster-fuck in execution after not even bothering to consult with State Dept, Homeland security, et al….ya know….the organizations that, even if not consulted (they weren't?), need to know what the fuck is going on so they understand what they’re supposed to be doing. This was either a surreal and stunning demonstration of complete incompetence in handling matters of national security, or a deliberately constructed distraction from Bannon’s promotion to NSC. Probably both.
Not only did trump campaign on a promise to ban Muslims from entering the US, Giuliani, one of T’s many trained crazy monkeys, has come right out and announced that Trump asked him to work out a plan to ban Muslims.
If this ban was only about keeping dangerous terrorists' from these countries out of the US, there would be no allowance for Christians from these countries either. Christians are being persecuted in these countries? Well Muslims are being persecuted in these countries too. And, we have plenty of examples of terrorists acts committed by good ‘ol red blooded American Christians right here at home.
You think muslim radicalization was a problem before this executive order? Not only is trump doing exactly what he needs to do to encourage an increase in radicalization of American and foreign Muslims, he’s doing a bang-up fantastic job of radicalizing non-Muslim Americans too.
http://www.valleynewslive.com/content/misc/FULL-TEXT-of-President-Trump-executive-order-on-temporary-refugee-ban-and-extreme-vetting-412153093.html
He allowed 85% of them off the hook. Yeah, REAL Muslim ban plants. Why you take Obama off the hook none of us know as you punted on your reasoning there. How convenient.
Your "extreme vetting" argument is just as pitiful as M.Johnsons so check out my response there and get back to me.
And stop with the "radicalizing" nonsense. Obama told us that Gitmo was the biggest terrorist recruitment vehicle on the planet, promised every year he would shut it down, and then pussied out.
Check out Code Pink as they routinely called him out for not closing it when an XO would have closed it in hours/days.
And, why is that every argument you make starts off by deflecting with some other thing that Obama (or HRC, or fill in the blank did)? First its that Obama used too many executive orders—now it’s: he should have used an executive order? WTF.
There is no “logic” to this executive order. There’s no logic as far as the countries. There was no logic in the way it was executed. There was no logic to not vetting the order with security agencies. There is no logic to trumps defense of it.
And, you don’t think people who oppose this administration are getting radicalized? How many people have turned out to protest in the streets since T was elected? How many just since he was inaugurated? In how many cities---- not just in the US, but in the world? Only 8 days of this administration and people can barely keep up with insanity.
Name one thing that Trump has done to try to unite Americans? Just ONE. Tiny olive branch? anything?
Yeah, yeah…all of us lazy libs just apathetically believing that we would never have an authoritarian dictator in the US. That it could never happen here, we said to ourselves….naively. ……Well, yep, we’re now watching it in action, and now we’re all gonna have to get up and fight this madman. The ACLU took in more online donations this weekend than they typically get in a year. There will be increasing radicalization and resistance to this administration.
And this is the shit that Maher has pointed out recently that is DESTROYING your party but I digress.
The point is two fold plants:
1) review our current vetting process to make sure it is as best as it could be
2) to stop what has happened in Europe BEFORE IT HAPPENS. Sadly, I feel it is too late for Europe as the horses are out of the barn.
Of course people are getting radicalized but you don't stop putting in place sound policies that will lessen or keep at bay the radicalization longer term.
Case in point: Were you against all the drone attacks that Obama tripled from the Bush admin? Didn't THAT radicalize more peeps? Obama didn't know this? I am in favor of the drone program as it PREVENTS or DEGRADES the Islamists ability to harm us even NOW though there may be an uptick in people who join their cause initially.
As for uniting our country, I would say tax breaks for the middle class, fighting for American jobs, fixing Obamacare, saying he didn't want Hills prosecuted, his 10 point plan for the inner cities, etc etc etc are all unifying but it seems like it all falls on your hateful and deaf ears as you have already branded him a "dictator."
Not much more to debate and I don't think you will convince any moderates with your Castro/Stalin/Hitler analogy but maybe I am wrong. LOL
The point is two fold plants:
1) review our current vetting process to make sure it is as best as it could be
2) to stop what has happened in Europe BEFORE IT HAPPENS. Sadly, I feel it is too late for Europe as the horses are out of the barn. Of course people are getting radicalized but you don't stop putting in place sound policies that will lessen or keep at bay the radicalization longer term.
---We agree. “sound” policies. What trump has done, and the way he did it are not “sound”. Again, complete cluster fuck. XO not vetted—not legally, or even with the security agencies that are tasked with enforcing it. Result: Chaos in airports, judges called out of bed to intervene on behalf of people who have visas and green cards. People scared. People angry and confused. More protesting. This is not the Pres putting in sound policies. This is the president acting like he thinks he got elected king.
Case in point: Were you against all the drone attacks that Obama tripled from the Bush admin? Didn't THAT radicalize more peeps? Obama didn't know this? I am in favor of the drone program as it PREVENTS or DEGRADES the Islamists ability to harm us even NOW though there may be an uptick in people who join their cause initially.
---I have mixed feelings about the drone strikes. I can see positives and negatives——as do many people. Were people radicalized about this? I’m sure many are strongly opposed. But, apparently not opposed enough to march in the streets by the 10’s of thousands to protest it. What’s your point?
As for uniting our country, I would say tax breaks for the middle class, fighting for American jobs, fixing Obamacare, saying he didn't want Hills prosecuted, his 10 point plan for the inner cities, etc etc etc are all unifying but it seems like it all falls on your hateful and deaf ears as you have already branded him a "dictator."
---Trump has not done any of the above. And, frankly, he has not given me (or millions of other Americans) one single reason to believe a word that comes out of his mouth. What he has done is continue to create division and bad will. He continues to behave erratically. Not only has he not done anything to help assuage peoples fears about his instability, nearly everything he does creates more head-scratching, and uncertainty.
Me calling Trump a dictator is hateful? Have you heard trump talk? Have you listened to his narcissistic rantings? Read his twitter ramblings? Watched him lash-out at anyone who opposes him? The man is more than just a different kind of politician. He’s quite likely clinically unstable. And he is behaving exactly like a dictator—case in point—last weekend.
Not much more to debate and I don't think you will convince any moderates with your Castro/Stalin/Hitler analogy but maybe I am wrong. LOL
---Convince moderates? Jack, I AM a moderate.
On what planet would you be considered a moderate? C'mon, sister, work with me here. lol
What conservative positions do you hold? I cant say I am familiar with all your posts but I can never recall you holding any right wing positions.
And yes, I have said here many times Trump is a blow hard with some real douche baggery comments and idiocy at times, but you look like an ass comparing him to people who have murdered/maimed thousands/millions.
There are enough loons here and on the Left that compare him to Hitler, etc but do you really want to be a part of that crowd? Seriously?
unless I'm a loon?
Don't put words in my mouth. I did not compare him to Hitler. I said he was behaving like a dictator. The man doesn't have to have killed people to behave like a dictator.
And, no, I'm certainly not conservative. But, I am significantly right of left on many issues. And, quite honestly, I'd really rather not feel so compelled to get involved politically. As a general rule, other than LGBT rights issues (and sex worker rights---which, for me, seem closely aligned), I tend to steer clear.
But, Trump needs to be reigned-in. And, he needs to hear his opposition loudly and clearly.
You most certainly did compare him to Hitler so stop with that Plants.
THAT'S what makes you a loon.
"A failure to recognize trump/bannons use of propagandist techniques to deliberately stir-up xenophobia--- techniques that ring directly back to the very same techniques used by hitler/goebbels, IMO, is dangerously naïve."
Trump and Bannon DO use propagandist techniques similar to Hitler/Goebbels. That does not mean I think that Trump IS Hitler.
For example: an artist might use techniques similar to....say...Picasso. That does mean they ARE Picasso, or are even attempting to BE Picasso. They have simply found a technique that is useful to them.
That is called a COMPARISON, plants. That was my point. I NEVER said you claimed Trump IS Hitler.
You got caught in a lie and you are now weaseling. Own your words, sweetie.
Nice to see you took the ADL's advice against making Hitler comparisons. I guess you just won't stop with your holocaust trivializing. Fucking sad plants.
The propagandist techniques----propagandist techniques being the operative phrase here----used by Trump/Bannon.....
"Largest Audience Ever to Witness an Inauguration, Period!"
"3 to 5 million illegal aliens voted in the election--and they all voted for Hillary!"
Neither of these statements are the truth. These are not "alternative facts". These are not a corrections to something incorrectly reported by the press (the most dishonest people ever!!). And, no matter how easily debunked these kinds of statements are, the trump/bannon strategy is to keep saying them, over and over because they know very well that many people will believe it.
That's propaganda. Either you never studied history, or you're fucking blind. Sad!
Didn't we have this very same discussion before? sweetie?
You got caught in a lie and you are now weaseling. Own your words, sweetie.
Nice to see you took the ADL's advice against making Hitler comparisons. I guess you just won't stop with your holocaust trivializing. Fucking sad plants.
Not in person crowd but audience. That includes in person and TV and online. The reason this statement is true is the number of online viewership for this event (and almost everything) is growing exponentially year after year.
And if you want to talk about actual crowd size, don't use the PROPAGANDA you've been exposed to from the main stream media sources because THAT picture WAS FAKED. If you care to prove it for yourself, I can help.
oh. ok. please do prove it.
That single point is that the Trump picture used by the MSM was NOT taken while Trump was speaking or being sworn-in. I watched the entire inauguration and then I saw this MSM picture and I knew it was wrong. I distinctly remembered large crowds filling in those vast areas with white ground covering. That's when I went searching for photo evidence to prove it and I found this photo made by someone else.
Anyway, it shows an indisputably large number of people occupying the spaces that the MSM tries to tell us were totally empty. I call that propaganda.
I've subsequently come to learn that the factual Trump picture above was made from a Gigapixel photo published on CNN's website (kudos to their website) but not their cable channel.
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/01/politics/trump-inauguration-gigapixel/
The temporary ban is basically a sound idea. It should also be extended to student visas. Student visas should be halted until the FBI can locate and deport the approximately 20% that are no longer (or never were) in school.
This is a temporary halt. If the Obama "extreme vetting" truly is extreme then this gives the Trump administration time to learn if that is so or not and what if any modifications are indicated.
All that said, they rolled this out in a TERRIBLE fashion. I doubt whether DHS Secretary Kelly heard about it on TV but there clearly should have been more planning and communications, plus they started it over a weekend, while planes were in the air. Trump handed the rope to his opposition. Most gladly used by them not because they disagree with the principles but because it's Trump. My cynical side even suspects that some Left leaning ICE agents purposefully were confused to the extent allowed by inarticulate wording of the EO and subsequent lack of direction. Two grades should be awarded, an or B+ for the goal and a C- for execution the first couple of days. Hopefully the next days will be less confusing but some people have already bought real estate at airports.
And in conclusion, I've learned to not trust anything forthwith from the MSM about Trump.
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 5:30:25 PM
Trump Derangement Syndrome is ruling her world. She has really become a pathetic as she is trying to twist herself into a pretzel as she tries to distinguish between comparisons to Hitler and saying Trump IS Hitler.
But yes Ed, as per usual, you are dead on. The execution was horrific while the policy is sound. For a temporary time period.
This cant stand forever but just until we know what the whole vetting process entails and how effective or ineffective it really is.
Bizarre that libs equate length of vetting to quality vetting. But that is the current state we are in.
it's proven daily on this very board
so they make up stuff to be pissed at
they have broken the mythical (and nonexistent) conservative "code" 
they then get all worked up and frantic about their own fabricated lies
call names, insult as a result of their own personal little fantasy
their conspiracy fantasies are entertaining though
what you see above is a GREAT example of that
so what, we served 109 people bottled water
they won't be happy until their buddy jihadists kill more of the stupid Americans who voted for Trump
vile libs are
our true enemy
My bridge connects Manhattan and Brooklyn - you can rename it Trump Bridge, and you can charge everyone $2 for using the bridge and, of course, give the proceeds to Donald
he picks the countries and then sits on his hands and does nothing. just like he did in Syria w/ the Red Line. They both are the main cause of the instability in the ME. Both are the main reason for the immigration/refugee march on Europe. And both of them have the balls the open their mouth against an action intended to keep the USA SAFE.
It was 9/11 on W's (non) watch that caused the instability in the ME. It was Trump's BF Putin who has made Syria even worse. Putin went into Syria as he needs friends - Asad's is now hiss BF
Interestingly Trump says he wants to work with Vlad in Syria. That's like saying Belichick wants to help the Falcons
-- Modified on 1/30/2017 6:11:19 PM
