I am a married man with no intention of being divorced but I have recently met a provider that has caused such strong feelings that I never thought I would ever have. I am not new at this hobby and I consider myself very intelligent and aware of what is going on. I see providers as a "safe escape" with no risk that is associated with having an affair in a small community. I also keep telling myself that I would have never met her otherwise. The sad part is that I enjoy her company and talking with her as much as the other part. I have quit seeing other providers as I am not satisfied anymore. Help.... need advice.
Brother I've been there before and all I can say is nothing good can come of this. You met her because you didn't want any emotional attachments. The more you stay with her, the more drawn in you will become. Worst case is you become a stalker. It will eat you up inside also knowing that she is probably making other men feel just as good as she is making you feel. Its her job and if she is doing it right, she is in tune with what her client wants to hear. Again, its part of her job to be what you want her to be while she is with you. You hit it on the head. Its a fantasy. Tough love, but come back to the real world. Read the post above this one as well at some of the suggestions for guys. Your situation is covered.
Never forget this is a business. This is the art of the transaction. Some clients may like their providers a great deal and vice versa.....but rule #1...this is a business.
Cynic that I am......
Nice handle. Loved the book. Have you been staying yourself lately?
we want the most what is really unattainable or not particularly good for us. i have given into temptation and emotion for others (yes even seeing clients on real time) to know that it is not as good after things change and that half the fun is because of the dynamics of the provider/ hobbyist relationship. Hell I just went on a weekender with and "ex" client and he only did me once for 20 minutes...back when he had to pay me for my time i certainly didn't have to beg for it.
It isn't always as bad as the others seem to imply. If you are just falling for the illusion, yeah, that's trouble. But if you both feel the same way, it can be great.
I dated a provider for many months after I stopped being her client. It was fantastic. She made me feel more alive than I ever had before. Best part was, because she was a provider, there was no concern about my being married. She didn't care, and I knew she wouldn't ever try to get me to leave my wife.
Now, the bad part was that like any relationship, it hurt a bit when it eventually broke up. But that's life. It would have been the same if I had fallen for some girl at work or a bar. I wouldn't have traded that time for anything.
I was gonna agreed with everyone else that this is a mistake, until I read the post from "Channel Z".
His point is logical, and reasonable, even though I don't agree.
So, rather than just saying you are are crazy to develop feeligns for a provider, I would say this:
Remember, if she "cares" about you the way you "care" about her, she will stop taking your money. The two of you can date, and if YOU are ok with the idea that she sleeps with other men - regularly, and SHE is ok with the fact that you are married (and of course the two of you agree to respect these others relationships) then, whatever. I wouldn't do it, but, again, "Channel Z" makes a rational arguement.
THE KEY however...the ONLY way you will know if there is something REAL between the two of you, versus you just being a more developed form of mouse, who fell for a pussy with a better mouse trap than any you've encountered before, is if the exchange of money stops. If it doesn't...not just slows down, not just becomes ANOTHER form of exchange (paying her rent and car payment instead of giving her cash might make YOU feel better, but you are STILL a "john"), then you are getting played a fool. Period. And you will deserve whatever you get...
I understand your viewpoint, about how any exchange of money (or goods, services, etc.) still brands you as a customer, not a SO. On the other hand, I think this viewpoint might come from knowing how the relationship between the customer and the provider got started, more anything else.
How many guys in the "real world," who would never stoop to "paying for it," pay the car note or help with the rent for their "much too good to sell it" girlfriends? If she doesn't ask for it, is the guy stupid to want to help out? If she does ask for it, does that make her a "provider?" If he sleeps there several nights a week and eats her food, is he a "real man" if he never opens his wallet, or just a free-loader? What's he bringing into the relationship, aside from his "studliness?"
I won't even go into the territory of "free" sex for life in exchange for a house, children and a wedding ring, but you can see how far I'm willing to push this. BTW, the "for life" part of this "free" sex arrangement is subject to revision afterwards, isn't it?
My point? The lines blur just as much in the "straight" world as they do when a customer/provider relationship transforms into something deeper. When this kind of relationship starts, the two people are sharing a lot more than just sex. While sex is still going to be a part of it, it's no longer the only part, and therefore shouldn't be the defining aspect. Is it reasonable for a lady to tell her former customer/new boyfriend, "I don't want your money anymore," and have him respond, "OK, cool! Now I can finally save some dough. What's for dinner?"
"How many guys in the "real world," who would never stoop to "paying for it," pay the car note or help with the rent for their "much too good to sell it" girlfriends? "
Plenty, I suppose. And there certainly is nothing wrong with "helping out" a friend.
However, there is a difference between "helping out" a friend and being used by one. If a friend has a set of circumstances that makes them unable to pay the car payment / rent, then, sometimes, what another friend does is help out. Personally, my position is that the 2nd friend is under no obligation to do so...money has ruined MANY friendships...but it does happen, and *I* personally have both benefited from such largess and granted it.
However, if a "friend" depends on such largess every month, then that "friend" clearly is living beyond their means, and the "helping friend" isn't helping at all - they are being USED...as a source of income. There *IS* a difference.
"If he sleeps there several nights a week and eats her food, is he a "real man" if he never opens his wallet, or just a free-loader?"
Such a guy is a freeloader. But there is a difference between being a gentleman and being a paycheck. A gentleman (unless there are significantly disparate incomes, and he is on the short in) pays for dinner when he takes his lady out. He takes her grocery shopping sometimes (maybe half the time? maybe more?), and he certainly picks up the tab for any "special items" he'd like her to prepare at home ("honey, I picked up a couple steaks on my way over here...wanna grill them up?") However, being a gentleman doesn't mean leaving a few $20s behind every time you get up from the bed. The women *I* date seriously not only need no such assistance, they would be insulted by it. I guess that is what I mean by "it depends on your world".
"I won't even go into the territory of "free" sex for life in exchange for a house, children and a wedding ring, but you can see how far I'm willing to push this."
Again, I guess it depends on the context of "your world". In *MY* world, marriage is a partnership. My EX didn't marry me for these things, because I didn't have them. She married me for me. As we acquired these things (sans kids...we didn't have any) she was a partner in the process. Equal partner? Well, I guess that depends on your definition. She didn't have the income I had, but her percentage of contribution was roughly the same. She DID have the credit I didn't have (putting yourself though a private university has MANY challenges) so her contribution was MORE than equal in that regard. Again, it depends on the circumstances in "your world"...I am sure for other couple the distribution is different. The key is...are you being USED? If so, then who’s to blame?
"What's he bringing into the relationship, aside from his "studliness?" "
I have no idea. Presumably, for every relationship it is different. But I know in MY relationships, I'd like to think of myself as more than a wallet and a penis. I would like to thing the pleasure of my company is part of the equation. My value as a person. The ability to make my SigO laugh - the ability to make her think. All the things that make me uniquely me. Is my wallet part of the equation? Probably...not because I give her money or pay her bills (I would NEVER do that). But because my income allows us to indulge in certain luxuries that we might not be able to otherwise. Fair enough...what fun would it be to do those things alone? I am glad to have someone to do them with. THAT is not being USED.
"The lines blur just as much in the "straight" world as they do when a customer/provider relationship transforms into something deeper. "
No they don't...not for me. And not for a man with clear vision and a strong self-identity of who he is in the relationship and what he brings.
Now, I am NOT saying that if a guy makes an occasional car payment...or hell, if he makes ALL of them...that by definition means he is being used. That is his choice.
The question I would ask is the same I posed to the original poster - do you KNOW why she is there with you? If the money exchanged stopped...would she still be there?
If you know the answer to the question is "yes", then, by all means, pay as much rent as you care to and can afford. To each their own.
But, if your SigO used to be your ATF, how would you ever know for sure - until you cut the cash flow off?
-- Modified on 7/6/2002 2:12:26 PM
Rent a room with a view and hot tub for six. Invite 5 girls you have never met. I promise this problem will become a memory.
I like Jar's proposal below and I plan to request a SBA loan to implement in the near future. I do not have a problem with the provider seeing other men as I am not the jealous or "stalker" type. I never thought I would have feelings like I have for this lady or any for that matter in a million years. It just happened before I realized it. I will be on a military tour in the near future and that will be a "wake-up call" as I will be going "cold turkey" in seeing her (or any woman for that matter). Damn, I miss the old days when we had government run brothels. Now you are lucky to see a woman uncovered in some of the damn places I go. Any of you providers out there want to donate time for your country and a cure for my "love sick blues"??
-- Modified on 7/4/2002 8:12:06 AM
You piqued my curiousity about this statement. Can you comment further?
During the VN Conflict, it was a well-kept secret in the states but ask anybody who served. I was newly wed and kept my vows while there and received a "Green Weenie with Barbed Wire Cluster" (similar to the Combat Infantry Badge) for not contracting VD (now called STD)during my tour.
I'm sure everyone who's done this has their own take on it, but here's mine:
1. If you're not looking to start a relationship, stop now. Try to remember why you started hobbying in the first place. If you're like me, it was to have some "fun with no strings." Do you really want to change that?
2. Every relationship carries its' own kind of baggage, but the baggage a provider's job brings into it is unlike any other. If you have any feelings for her, I don't care how liberal or "understanding" you think you are, sooner or later it's really going to f**k with you. For example, one night you're sitting there watching TV with her in her living room, just hanging out, cozy like. Maybe a little snuggling going on. Her phone rings.
"Hello?" ... "Hi, how are you!" ... "OK, what time you wanna come?"
Then she tells you, "somebody's coming in 20 minutes."
What are you going to do? Go home? What if you were planning a sleep-over that night or maybe you actually live with her? Go for a drive and come back later? Hide in her apartment somewhere when she takes him to the bedroom and then hide again when she walks him to the front door afterwards? I've done all three. They all suck.
The last option gives you the treat of getting to hear the action going on in the bedroom and then the chit-chat and good-bye kiss at the door when he leaves. You know, if you listen to the bed creak enough times you can even start to identify the positions they're doing. You also get to hear when she cums (or pretends to).
Now imagine this scenario repeats itself two or three more times the same evening. And the next evening. And the next. Every time her phone rings (for any reason) your guts tighten. Here on the Discussion Boards we can be very philosophical and intellectual, but when she sits back down next to you on the couch and you catch that whiff of mouthwash, I promise you you'll be in touch with your most primal feelings.
So, if you can't handle it, what are you going to do about it? Tell her to quit? What if she won't? Unless you can support her, she still needs to make a living. Once she's started making several hundred dollars a day for a few hours work, it's hard to stop and get "straight" job, especially if she has little education or speaks limited English. Even if you can support her, she may have other issues about being "rescued."
Maybe for her, it's "just a job." She probably doesn't care much about her customers and maybe even bad-mouths them when they come up in conversation with you. That still doesn't change how you're going to feel when the phone rings.
3. To be honest, I like providers better than most other women. While some are basket cases, pathological liars or worse, others are among the people I most admire. I've even found that some women I really click with aren't providers now, but USED TO be. I think that doing that kind of job puts them in touch with their humanity (and that of others) in a way that no other experience can. The better ones use that to their advantage.
4. I no longer hobby because I'm in a relationship with my former ATF. Yes, she's still working. Yes, it bothers me. A lot. The good things have been amazingly good, while the bad things I never could have imagined beforehand. To make matters worse, I'm married and am struggling with the "do-I-leave-my-wife-for-her?" issue. Since she's not "ready," I don't need to decide today, but there's a real chance that I might throw away everything to be with her. Now, ask yourself, does all this sound smart to you? If not, then be careful about getting emotionally involved with the ladies out there. Keep the fantasy a fantasy. You'll both live longer.
-- Modified on 7/5/2002 11:34:22 AM
I have no idea what your marriage is like but please think long and hard about that one. Then think again.
I don't see how anyone can seriously date a woman who sleeps with other men for a living. ok, I am a fbsm provider and I'm getting married next month. But as I do massage, my contact with clients is pretty limited. And reading the reviews of other fbsm girls I am very conservative - no oral for either me or the client, no penetration of any kind. I know others do those things but I don't. But still about 50% of my clients come back. Maybe because I do prostate massage :-0)?
Anyway, we have a goal in mind - two more years until I graduate from school or until we win the lotto, which ever comes sooner. I prefer my massage job to student loans, you know? And most of the time I really enjoy it. I screen pretty carefully and most of the guys who I see are really sweet respectful people.
It must be very difficult to get past that sort of thing. If I were a man, I don't think I'd be able to do it.
Don't be so sure he's really OK with it. Sure, that's what he tells you (to keep the peace), but what man doesn't care if his girlfriend does that with other men? Yes, I know it's not "actually" sex, but it's damn sure close enough. Wouldn't you care if he did the same kind of thing with other women?
BTW, thanks for your comments re: my other post above. Yes, it's a fine pickle I've gotten myself into.
-- Modified on 7/5/2002 12:34:09 PM
... "When I was a stripper I touched clothed people, danced naked and ground on their laps in a sexual manner. Strangely, if the above are done in the context of nurse or massage therapist they are legal, respectable and positive."
I must be going to the wrong doctor. His nurse just takes my blood presssure and weighs me.
BTW, I have nothing against "happy ending" FBSM's, or any other service mentioned on this site. Remember, I used to be a "hobbyist" and may be one again some day, depending on how things work out (and then there's that "once bitten" issue). It's just that it feels very weird when someone you have feelings for does this kind of work. She's not deceiving me and I don't feel jealous in the traditional sense, but it still hurts.
Personally, if my friend started giving just handjobs only, I'd be OK with that. But that's mainly because it would be such a major shift from what she does now. Even then, I'd prefer it if she kept it out of my face. But that would be difficult, since we're together so much. If she only worked when I wasn't there, her hours of operation would be quite short. Since she no longer advertises and only sees a limited pool of regulars (who she doesn't want to see go elsewhere), she's pretty much at their mercy as far as scheduling appointments is concerned.
Good luck to you and your fiance.
caught me again....good thing because I have nothing to offer to these boards. Yet, my repl that you deem unfit to post because I'm banned is EXACTly what this girl needs to be told. You won't let me do it, so damn, then have the guts to do it yourself. She is saying YOU are not fit to be with a man because you do f/s, but she is because she only does prostrate massage and HJ. See, this is why I was moderated and then banned....because I am willing to tell the truth.
You said: I am saying you are not "fit" to be with a man and I am? Huh? I never said anyone wasn't "fit" to be with a man.
I SAID if I were a man I don't think I'd be able to get past my girlfriend having sex with other men for a living. And that's true. Am I not allowed to give my opinion? Surely there are men here who see providers that would never consider dating a provider for that very reason. Yet their opinions stand.
People set their own terms in relationships. I reread my post several times looking for what could have possibly set you off and found nothing.
Then I searched for your other posts and found this gem:
Do you make a distinction between the provider/courtesan and the whore/prostitute?
http://theeroticreview.com/msgBoard/viewmsg.asp?MessageID=24193&boardID=12&page=1
Giving the classy phrasing of THAT question, I'm sure your deleted message had something to do with me being a "whore" like all the rest. If that's your opinion, fine. If you don't see a difference between a five minute handjob and all the other many things done by full service providers, that's FINE! I do - and so does my fiance - and frankly, his is the only opinion that matters to me.
And BTW, to answer your question, I don't call anyone a "whore", no matter what dollar amount is involved. People can do what they want with their OWN bodies and I'll do what I want with mine. I don't feel superior to anyone, I just know my own comfort level of what I will accept in MYSELF and in my romantic partner and I stick to it. Sorry if that disturbs you.
And P.S. - it's prostate not prostRate. If you're going to insult someone, try not to embarrass yourself in the process.
-- Modified on 7/6/2002 8:22:05 AM
But what I did was:
Go to "Find Message" button on the lower left, do a search for RealisticRick as Author. When I found the post I wanted I put the mouse over it and did a right click of the mouse. I then got a few options, one being "Open In New Window". I opened post in a new window and it had the correct URL in the address bar.
You couldn't be banned for being honest, because you are NOT honest.
The only reason you were not banned sooner is because _I_ appreciated some of your contributions to our forums. Your behavior since being banned has only cemented our decision.
Man....that was A LOT.
First, thanks for having the guts to share all that with the original poster. He needed to read it - the truth - from someone who CLEARLY has first hand experience with the truth.
Second...perhaps you need to re - read it yourself. Why would you put yourself in such a situation?
I can't imagine WHAT is going on in your "home" with your wife that you'd think what you are signing up for is somehow superior. I hope to GAWD it is something more that "not getting laid at home".
Your post is so...chilling...because while you are clearly in touch with your reality, aware of the pitfalls and short comings, so aware that you are attempting to warn another man off, you seem to still not be connected to it. Its like you are reading a book to a friend about a third persons life...except, as you know, that third person is you.
My arrogant pat answer in these situations is usually some pithy comment about losing perspective. Except, that doesn't apply to you does it? You haven’t lost perspective...clearly you know EXACTLY what going on.
What has happened, it appears, is you've decided that you don't deserve anything better from / in life for yourself. That whatever those amazingly good things are, they can only be found in the context with which you currently exist. Not only does your happiness have to come with pain, but also that pain must sear...sear so bad that you wouldn't wish it on anyone else, yet you won't step away from the flames yourself.
Without getting into your home life and what is going on there, do you believe that you'd be incapable of finding those "amazingly good times" with anyone else? Someone who doesn't have the "baggage" as you describe it? If you don't, I understand...I think most people have been there. The real question is - why do you think that? Why do you think that happiness is so elusive for you - so NOT part of your life - that having stumbled on it, you are resigned to accept it in THIS context?
Your post is so intelligently written that you must be an intelligent man. So...you have probably thought this before. Yet, perhaps in your intelligence, you rationalized with yourself, and dismissed the notion. Maybe, you need to hear it from one other source. Than again, maybe not.
Seek professional counseling....
Because I'm an idiot. Or at least self-destructive. I knew what I was doing every step of the way and did it anyway. All the rules I've learned over the years were never forgotten, just ignored. And I ended up right where I knew I would, in spite of my denial and rationalizations.
Professional counseling? Maybe I just need my ass kicked.
BTW, thanks for your responses to my posts in this thread. I'll PM you later.
--PC