Personally, i find the biggest "gay bashers" who obsess over homosexuality are self loathing guys with "tendencies".
I find that most straight guys might make fun of a "flamer" or on occasion make an offhand remark about "fags" but the average guy doesn't spend a lot of time dwelling on it. I think we all know some guys who get all worked up in a lather the moment homosexuality is mentioned and I am convinced these guys are simply insecure in their own sexuality and lash out in rage rather than come to grips with it.
As for religion, I think it fuels the fire and legitimizes the hatred these guys these guys like to spew, but I don't think it is the only or even the root cause of it all. I have never noticed much of a difference in the percentage of homophobes as a correlation of religion in my experience at least. The rabid religious fanatics are another story of course, but they hate everyone not like them, not just "fags"
Any of you agree or disagree on this ?
Do you think the Congressman's lament also applies to this board ?
Lastly, it would be nice if people would dispense with aliases while discussing this.
-- Modified on 1/16/2012 7:43:09 PM
Now, I am not a christian but what's real is real.
A baseball player from the Dominican Republic can cross himself and kiss a cross before his every opportunity at bat and nobody notices. But when a white football player does something similar? Katie bar the door!
When a black man who is an actual ordained minister, Jessie Jackson, ran for President, nobody wondered aloud if he was going to try to use the Presidency to impose his religion. But anytime a white politician professes religious views, the Huffington Post and Greenwich Village types almost go into an apoplectic fit of fear.
Christianity IS under assault in general. In Massachusetts, until he "corrected the error" at the last minute, the governor had a Hanukah Menorah but a HOLIDAY Tree. That was because of separation of religion and state, you see -- but only ONE religion must be separated from the state: Christianity.
You can see the same in public schools where the kids are taught the traditions of every imaginable religion but the one ... special ... religion which is so abhorrent to them that they dare not speak its name: Christianity.
If you are Jewish, you can make jokes about Jews but nobody else can. Anyone else who does is, of course, a Nazi-who-wants-to-kill-Jews. If you are Muslim, you can make jokes about Muslims but nobody else can without fear of getting into serious trouble. The same goes for every other religion but one: Christianity.
Christianity, in all its forms, is open for attack through "humor" from professed non-Christians be they atheists, Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrianists, Mithraists or whatever they happen to be. And unlike members of other religions, Christians are expected to suck it up and take it without protest.
Damned straight Christians are a persecuted minority.
Anything that would be wrong to do to members of any other religion is just as wrong to do to Christians. And anything that would be wrong to do to a Christian baseball player from the Dominican Republic is just a wrong to do to a white Christian football player.
If we can't start playing fair in this country, the day will come when those who are persecuted won't be very sympathetic anymore or in a humor to back down. Persecution has consequences. I'm not advocating them -- just saying they are inevitable.
Now I *am* a Christian, but what's real is real. Your subjective, dumb ass take on a couple anecdotes doesn't equal an assault on Christianity. Smh. Always some blathering dumbfuck, waiting in the wings to conjure up trivial stories of "persecution" while real people suffer.
I DO understand there is a difference between being whipped and being insulted or mocked.
However, the "stories" I brought up are indeed part of a pattern if anyone cares to stand back and look at the big picture.
Recently, a Federal court ruled that a banner with the following wording had to be removed from the Cranston West High School auditorium. The banner was presented to the school as a gift from the class of 1963, and the words were composed by a 7th grader in 1959 *at the specific request* of the school for a non-denominational prayer. The school LONG AGO stopped all prayer in compliance with various edicts. The prayer is indeed non-denominational to the extent that it accommodates any religion that believes in a God. If you remove the first three words and the last word, it isn't religious at all. Even so, it was not presented as a prescription for prayer -- but rather as commemorative of an aspect of the school's history because at one time, that was the prayer recited by the students at the beginning of every day.
So this HISTORICAL commemoration which is not prescriptive *at all* must now be removed. Look at the words. Are these such bad things?
Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen
An atheist girl found it "offensive" and sued for this piece of the school's history to be removed -- and she won.
I suggest a replacement banner:
To the world of material,
Grant us each day the desire to do whatever the fuck we want,
To grow mentally and morally according to no discernible standards,
To be kind and helpful only when we have something to gain,
To be honest with ourselves and others only when convenient,
To have a slaughter rule which protects us from knowing how badly we suck,
To have a 50% out of wedlock birth rate,
And conduct ourselves according to Me Me Me.
but lets be honest. Political correctness pushes s standpoint where you seem to need to be tolerant to anything except a Christian based faith.
I would not call is "assault", but I would defiantly say there is a double standard.
Let's be real here. This congressman had it wrong the moment he said that Christians were a minority in this country.
For some reason, Christians in 'Murica seem to think that violating the religious rights of others is the same as them practicing their freedom of religion.
You don't see Muslims trying to make kids in public school all face towards Mecca and pray. You don't see Jews trying to make school lunches Kosher. It's only the Christians who are trying to dictate what is taught in biology classes. And you certainly don't see Atheists trying to force Christians to teach evolution in Sunday school. Yet, somehow this is "Christian persecution" in their minds.
In this country, you don't see Muslims beheading Christians. You don't see Jews demanding Christian sacriface an animal. But you do see Christians executing kids like Matthew Sheppard. Yet, being told that they can't break the law just like everyone else is somehow "persecution".
No matter what you call it, nobody ever takes a baseball bat to a Christmas tree or a Naitivity scene. But if an atheist wants to put up a display in my own home state, Christians will destroy it. Somehow this is also "persecution".
If you go to jail in my home state, then you will find that prisoners are segregated into 2 groups. One standard group with lousy amendities, and another group with much nicer amendities and privileges. That 2nd group is reserved for Christians. Yet somehow they're persecuted.
If you own real estate that you call a church you can get tax exempt status, and you can even get the state to pay for the directing of traffic, but those rights are only reserved for Christians. You don't see atheists getting a free ride on taxes, yet somehow it's the Christians who are being persecuted.
What a bunch of fucking crybabies. When a couple of these fuckers are fed to lions or crucified upside down, then they can talk about persecution. Until then, it's just like everything else that comes out of their mouth: a bunch of bullshit.
check out "teenage atheist" OP, which is located 9 OP's below this one.
Yeh, I was reading a bit of that. You guys always have the most fun here on the weekends. I'm usually too drunk or high to post, lol.
Now, if they wanna be religious, that's their business. My take however, is that they seem "embarrassed" by it, as if being a "religious hobbyist" is an oxymoron ( & a credible argument could be made for that )that makes them look like "wusses". So, they have to resort to "subterfuge" arguments & childish aliases.
There are exceptions to this; OSP & others proclaim their religious faith & I have no problem with that. It's just the ones who disingenuously DENY it that I have a problem with.
Willy, there are about 4-5 atheists/agnostics on the board;I'm proud to be among them. The rest, the vast majority, seem to be quite religious & seem to be ashamed to admit it.
From what I can gather from posts alone, I'd say OSP is a real deal. You'll also notice that there isn't an atheist here who can't have a civil conversation with him about religion. Genuine Christians (they are few and far between I'm sad to say) tend to be good people. They're more than happy to help someone out, they seem devoid of hate, and they seem to take the notion of loving their neighbor and enemies to heart. If every Christian was like that you wouldn't have prayer banners in a school and I wouldn't bitch about their churches having tax exempt status. Hell, I might even volunteer for janitor duty once a month.
But sadly, most Christians can't be bothered with all that. Close oberservation will reveal that what they really want is for other people to follow the tenets of their religion, while they are free to violate them without regard to any consequences.
So you'll have Christian nutcases killing a poor kid like Matthew Sheppard because he's gay, despite that it violates the Commandment of "thou shall not kill". You'll have Christian hobbyists who will rant and rave about abortion, forgetting that they're violating the commandment of "thou shall not covet".
It does seem strange that for these types of Christians someone else must always be the ones who pays the price for their delusions, but never them.
what evidence is there that the killers of Mathew Sheppard were "Christians" or, if they were, were primarily motivated by their faith to beat him to death? I haven't read any.
PS: the "pri" in me feels compelled to point out it's spelled "amenities."
I really ought to use a browser with a spell checker function, but the gov't gets to dictate what software I use. Oh well.
I'm going to go out on a leap here and say that no one would kill or target homosexuals if it wasn't for religion. Without religion, homosexuality might be perceived at worse as unusual, but more likely as unique or exotic. It takes religion to tie a gay kid to a fence, beat the shit out of him, and leave them there to die.
While homophobia is, to some extent, fueled by religion it goes beyond that and into the society as a whole. Most groups are intollerant.
Personally, i find the biggest "gay bashers" who obsess over homosexuality are self loathing guys with "tendencies".
I find that most straight guys might make fun of a "flamer" or on occasion make an offhand remark about "fags" but the average guy doesn't spend a lot of time dwelling on it. I think we all know some guys who get all worked up in a lather the moment homosexuality is mentioned and I am convinced these guys are simply insecure in their own sexuality and lash out in rage rather than come to grips with it.
As for religion, I think it fuels the fire and legitimizes the hatred these guys these guys like to spew, but I don't think it is the only or even the root cause of it all. I have never noticed much of a difference in the percentage of homophobes as a correlation of religion in my experience at least. The rabid religious fanatics are another story of course, but they hate everyone not like them, not just "fags"
big difference between being a Christian, and being a rabid religious fanatic. The Christians I've known did not try to force their religion down my throat, as you have mentioned happened to you. The few rabid religious fanatics I've dealt with, didn't hang around long when told to fuck off.
Willy can spout all the accusations and vile shit he wants to, (on government time), but Gay bashers are not following true Christian dogma. Saying someone is a Christian, and actually living a life as a Christian are different concepts.
I don't personally give two shits what gays get up to, as long as it isn't in my house, or my sons Cub Scout Troop.
-- Modified on 1/17/2012 11:17:24 AM
I would hardly think so. Religion is a factor, but not the ONLY factor.
It all boils down to fear of the "different/other".
I have no proof of this, but, if a poll were conducted in the U.S, I'd say the most hated groups are Muslims & Gays. Highly regrettable, but, I think my guess is correct.
Which means that if you're a Gay Muslim living in the U.S., your lot will probably not be a happy one.
Assuming for the moment that "home" is any Muslim dominated country, especially one that lives by Sharia law. i doubt that "coming out of the closet" is very healthy in those places. lol
Come to think of it, maybe religion has more to do with it than we give credit for? lol
No, I am still with you on this, religion is simply one of the factors in homophobia. Huge factor yes, but only factor, no.
But, am in agreement with you.
There certainly are atheist or agnostic homophobes. And it's not like queer bashing is something that only starts in churches.
But it also shouldn't be a surprise that people with a lot of "moral" indignation often turn out to be closeted homosexuals who are also quite religious. Larry Craig comes to mind.
Repressed people sometimes use religioun as a cover. Like this guy.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/dead-reverends-rubber-fetish
I don't know if this particular guy was gay (I wouldn't be surprised if he was), but I doubt he would have died the way he did if he was able to come to terms with his own sexuality.
Christianity affects all of society. It effects people in their attitudes and beliefs, and it even affects people who aren't Christian. You can see this in how we as a nation talk about abortion, the death penalty, doctor assisted suicide, living will's, and a host of other issues.
The perception of homosexuals as something that is wrong, or evil, or someone worth killing, or even to crack a joke about all comes from religion. This perception wouldn't exist at all if it wasn't for the influence of religion.
Look at how the ancient Romans viewed sex. Orgies were a normal thing, it didn't matter the gender of the participants. I figure that's probably our natural default mode.
-- Modified on 1/17/2012 10:53:13 AM
in regards to "closeted, repressed, latent homosexuals" who lash out because of their repressed urges and self loathing often caused by religion's teaching that it is "wrong".
but I all candor, I make fun of gays at time, I am certainly not above telling gay jokes, and the thought of two guys getting it on completely repulses me. None of those feelings or attitudes on my part have the least thing to do with religion. It's just how I am wired. I also am all for assisted suicide, the death penalty and a woman's right to choose. Christianity has had no influence on me on any of those issues either.
Now I am the furthest thing from a "gay basher",and I poke fun (ok ridicule) almost every other group besides gays, but I still have a built in bias against homosexuality even though I practice a "live and let live" policy in real life.
Particularly in the field of humor.
It's only in last decade or so that homophobia
has started to become "gauche".
If I see 2 guys getting it on, I throw up a little bit in my mouth. But I wonder how much this has to do with wiring so much as environmental conditioning. There are foods that make me ill just to look at or smell, but if I saw people eating it from the time I was a kid, I doubt I'd have that reaction. I'm guessing being repulsed by homosexuality would probably be the same. Without religion, we'd probably all just have preferences.
I obstain from making fun of homosexuality just because I believe it has a religious origin. I guess I also don't find it particularly funny. Besides, there's nothing wrong with two hotties getting it on.
But that's what religious bigotry is all about.